Tag Archives: Khornate Daemons

A Few Games of 40K

This has been a good couple of days for 40K.


On Saturday, I braved the drive up to Germantown to help test drive MVB’s NoVApocalypse format (the drive up was surprisingly easy; the drive back considerably less so).

I was paired up with Dameon Green who was running his Thousand Sons. His list looked something like:

Daemon Prince – Wings, Mark of Tzeentch
Daemon Prince – Wings, Mark of Tzeentch
Summoned Greater Daemon

Dreadnought – DCCWx2
Dreadnought – DCCWx2
Dreadnought – DCCWx2

Chaos Space Marines x5 – Aspiring Champion, Combi-melta, Melta
– Rhino
Chaos Space Marines x5 – Aspiring Champion, Combi-melta, Melta
– Rhino

Heavy Support
Obliterators x2

After some brief discussion about what he was bringing and the two lists I’d been considering, we decided I should play the following (the list I’d been considering last week):

Bloodthirster – Unholy Might
Bloodthirster – Unholy Might

Bloodletters x8 – Fury
Bloodletters x8 – Fury

Fast Attack
Flesh Hounds x8 – Fury
Flesh Hounds x8 – Fury

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince – Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Khorne
Daemon Prince – Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Khorne

So, basically, we were a pair of jerks running seven monstrous creatures and five close-combat walkers in a combined 3,000 points.

Game 1

Our first game was against Kevin Comer and David Gonzales.  Kevin was running a sharp looking Vostroyan First-born Imperial Guard list that was, basically, a lot of chimeras and three Leman Russ Demolishers.  David was running Dark Angels: terminators, predators, a dreadnought and some mechanized tactical marines.

There were two scenarios in play.  The first was to capture the three objectives running down the center of the board; only Dameon and Kevin’s units were able to do that.  Meanwhile, five of my units (both Bloodletters, both Flesh Hounds and one of the Princes) and five of David’s units (both Terminators, both Predators and the Dreadnought) produced Kill Points.

I had some odd scatters, which meant the game was mostly Dameon’s 1,500 points doing kind of an unreasonably good job defeating their 3,000 points (while my daemons popped in on the other side of the table).

Mid-game, my guys started getting more involved, and the tide started to turn.  Ultimately, we ended up tabling them (Kevin’s Lord Commissar wasn’t quite able to survive a fistfight with Dameon’s Greater Daemon).

This was a well-fought game, and our opponents were really great guys.

Game 2 

The second game of the day was considerably more intimidating: we were matched up against Joe O’Malley and Mark Aksel: Joe was running, basically, nothing but Blood Angel Rhino chassis and Mark was running Space Wolves.

Two scenarios, again: The first scenario was a tough one: non-vehicle models could “plant a flag” on one of four hills.  They only got one flag to plant per unit, and started accruing points for each round they remained on this hill after planting the flag.  Killing a unit that had planted a flag would produce the number of points that unit had generated -1.  The second scenario was controlling an objective in the center of the table.

I’m not kidding when I say they had a lot of armor on the table: Joe had eight ten Rhino chassis (three Predators, three Baal Predators and four Rhinos) and Mark had three six (three Razorbacks and three Vindicators); armor’s something I have trouble with.  Monstrous Creatures wreck armor, but it’s a poverty when a WS 10 Bloodthirster is hitting on 4’s (or 6’s).  Then, Chaos was fickle and sent me the wrong wave to start with.

I ended up camping out the Bloodletters in the ruins (not bunkers) near the objective and sending the Flesh Hounds into the parking lot.  The Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes trickled in.

One of the Flesh Hound units was obliterated on the first turn; the second unit went after the Baals; trashing one and putting a serious hurt on the others.  One of the Bloodthirsters chewed his way through the Wolf Lords.  The Bloodletters did nothing, except hide in cover and wait to claim the objective.

Mark sent his Lone Wolves to plant flags and Joe had a Rhino Immobilize itself on a hill early on, so the squad riding in it planted their flag, as well.  Because of the unfortunate Daemonic Assault roll, we were never in a position to really drop flags. Because of our low number of units (actually, I wouldn’t say it was all that low, but theirs was so high), we wouldn’t have been able to sit around on the flags even if we’d been able to… so we conceded that scenario early on.

It looked like we might be able to pull off a tie, holding down the center objective, but an overly aggressive move with the Chaos Marines and their Rhinos exposed it to our opponents.  Even after six turns of what was a knock-down, drag-out fight, they were able to get enough models onto the objective to contest it.

Again, our opponents were great guys and put up a very tough, fun game.

It was a long day, but it was absolutely a really good day of gaming.

(Pictures are MVB‘s)


I met up with Austin to take a run at his newly-completed 23rd Necromundan Ash Waste Guard.

I’d realized, while waiting around for him to show up, that I hadn’t actually written a list for the day.  I dug through my bag, found one, and tweaked it a bit with the results of some lessons learned.  I ran:


Bloodcrushers x4 – Fury, Icon, Instrument
Bloodcrushers x4 – Fury, Icon, Instrument

Bloodletters x8 – Fury
Bloodletters x8 – Fury

Fast Attack
Flesh Hounds x8 – Fury
Flesh Hounds x8 – Fury

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince – Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Khorne
Daemon Prince – Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Khorne
Daemon Prince – Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Mark of Khorne

He ran something like:

Company Command Squad – Plasmagun x2, Lascannon
– Chimera – Heavy Flamer
Company Command Squad – Meltagun x2, Lascannon

Psyker Battle Squad x10
– Chimera

Infantry Platoon
– Command Squad – Flamer x2, Meltagun x2
– Infantry Squads x40 – Commissar, Power Weapon x3, Lascannon x3
Veteran Squad – Plasmagun x3, Powerfist
– Chimera

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Squad – Exerminator x1, Vanquisher x1
Leman Russ Squad – Battle Tank x1, Executioner x1
Colossus x1

The above is certainly not accurate; I’m pretty sure he had more Chimerae, but it’s the gist.

We rolled up Seize Ground (3 objectives) with Spearhead Deployment.

Didn’t get the wave I wanted, but Austin insisted that I take it anyway.

Bloodthirsters came in first, followed by the Daemon Princes (hoping to get cover from the ‘Thirsters) and a unit of Bloodcrushers to provide an icon for the rest of the army.

By the end of the first turn, I’d lost a Bloothirster and, if I recall correctly, one of the Daemon Princes.  Then, the Flesh Hounds and one of the units of Bloodletters came in while the monstrous creatures that survived the initial salvo advanced and started slaughtering anything they could get their axes into.

The surviving Bloodthirster was a little too successful and too frightening in slaughtering Guardsmen: his opponents ran away, leaving him to suck up all the fire from the blob of infantry.  He didn’t last… the squad that ran away rallied, however.  I’d gotten down to one Daemon Prince, who started banging on tanks and then the Colossus.

The Flesh Hounds charged into the blob of infantry: miraculously, enough survived to kill a bunch of Guardsmen and win combat. Later, the surviving Daemon Prince, and a squad of Bloodletters joined them to wrap the squad up.  The first squad of Bloodcrushers was extremely intimidating… but fell in combat to a very tough squad of Vostroyans.

The game ended on Turn 5: just in time for my Bloodletters to kill the last of his Infantry Platoon and consolidate onto the objective (and behind the Daemon Prince for a bit of cover) while the late-arriving Bloodcrushers ran into range to contest one, maybe (but probably not) both of the other objectives (neither of which were actually held at the time).  Had the game pushed into Turn 6, it’s a tough call to say whether or not he’d have been able to eliminate my Bloodletters (my guess is yes) but it’s unlikely he’d have been able to push off my Bloodcrushers… so it would probably have been a draw.

As always, a great game with Austin.

Painting Progress – 20100714

It’s been dead quiet ’round here, mostly on account of work being a bastard.  I expect that will pass when July does.

That said, I have gotten a few things done:

I’ve been plugging away at finishing the Bloodcrushers that have taken me, what, two months to paint?  God, I’ve really grown to hate these things.  Fortunately, I’m done with them.  (Just in time for plastic Bloodcrushers to be confirmed.  Bah.)

Nothing new here, really.  Painted up about the same as the other batch of Bloodcrushers, except they’ve been squad-marked with blood on their hands.  I suppose a strong argument could be made that, in general, they don’t look as good as the other batch: that wouldn’t surprise me.  I’ve hated these guys for a couple of weeks now.

Next on the docket for the Daemons is a few Bloodletters.  I need to assemble and paint the models to give each octet the full range of non-musician icons (so, four regular bloodletters to replace Fury and Icon ‘Letters and an Icon ‘Letter), bumping the octets to ten models each.  (Shut up.)  After that, I need to build my second Chariot of Khorne.

Before I do any of that, though, I’m going to paint some Skaven.

I’ve started plugging away at a few characters, looking for some easy wins (after the interminable Bloodcrushers) and to build up a little momentum.    That means the Warlord on Bonebreaker Rat Ogre, the BSB and a random other Warlord/Chieftain built primarily out of Stormvermin bits.

Some WIPs:

I am wholly displeased with how the flesh turned out.  It took me so freaking long to get coverage out of the Bronzed Flesh, I don’t know that I’m up to stripping it down and starting it over.  Mike‘s been pushing me to put the mini in the Golden Daemon, as it’s a neat conversion… but not like this.

The BSB is coming along much better, however.  I’m quite pleased that I was able to replicate the armor on my Stormvermin.  The banner itself is going to be a separate undertaking.

Not much on the Warlord yet.

I’ve have spent some time over the past few weeks stripping some Skaven minis I’d gotten in some lots a couple of years ago.  The Power Dissolver is king.  That said, I do have to revise previous statements re: Power Dissolver and gloves.  For a few minis, gloves aren’t really necessary.  When stripping a pile, however, it really will dry out your fingertips… so I’ve started to use gloves.  Thought I’d mention that.

Finally, my buddy Mike’s started up his own hobby blog: The Black Ark Apathy.  He’s out near Cupertino now, and is looking for folks to square base it up with.

Painting Progress – 20100621

I’ve given up on painting my next quartet of Bloodcrushers.  It’s been a chore to paint them and if I’m honest with myself, I kind of resent the Daemon army at the moment, as if it’s Khorne’s fault I won’t be running them 8/14.

I did decide that I like my approach with the chariot.  I didn’t get much feedback, really: just Matt H. telling me that it looked off, possibly small.   The chariot itself is slightly larger than the Chaos and Tomb King chariots and is about the size of the High Elf chariot.  The perception could come from the FW Herald of Khorne being enormous.

The chariot is a Defiler “knuckle” with a plasticard base and edges and spikes from the Chaos vehicle sprue as rails.  The Khorne symbol is from the same sprue.  The wheels are from a Chaos chariot.  I’d been planning on having plasticard struts connect to the shoulders of the Juggernaut, but Sunday afternoon I decided that would be hard to work.  Instead, I used some hobby chain I picked up years ago for some long-since abandoned project. I think it worked out pretty well.

I will say, though, that painting this thing is going to be a huge pain in the genitals.  At least the Herald isn’t glued to anything yet.

Also, because I’m looking at returning to my Skaven (if I’m not playing 40K at the Open, why wait to return to Fantasy?), I finally stuck the Grey Seer on my Screaming Bell.  I wouldn’t call it done just yet, since I need to decide what I’m doing with the bell-ringer, but… this is a big step.

Basically, I clipped the front of the saddle off, and smoothed it down.  Ground out some of the area between the Seer’s legs to try to get him to sit more flush against the dragon before pinning it onto the saddle.  I used a little green stuff to pull its robes down and look natural (as opposed to just stuck on).

I also had to do a hand-swap, as the Seer’s left hand is supposed to be hanging onto the Bell, and there’s nothing for that hand to connect to.  Instead, I just used a sword/dagger hand from the Stormvermin sprue.  I like the result a lot.

Finally, I had to throw out my spray station.  I’m quite annoyed by this fact, since it was great and big and I’d been using it for several years.  A wasp decided to start building a nest in it, however, so it had to go.

Coming up, I’ve got a lengthy battle-report to type up and post.  I’m also going to be focusing on my rats (over 40K) starting pretty much now.  That means I’ll probably start with finishing my half-painted Doomwheel.

Feedback Wanted: Chariot of Khorne

So, I’m working on some Chariots of Khorne, and I’m looking for some feedback on where I’m going with it.

First off: I’ll be building two.  The actual herald will be the Forgeworld Herald of Khorne.  They’ll be pulled by Chaos Lord Juggernauts.  The aesthetic of my army is, I think, somewhat clear, and it doesn’t really allow for wood, which makes things hard.

I’ve looked really closely at all of the different chariot kits GW puts out… and found them all wanting.

  • I have a Chaos Chariot, and probably track down a second one without too much heartburn.  But it’s wood.  It’ll look weird painted brass and iron.  I could fill in the woodgrain, maybe, but I don’t know quite how that’ll work out.
  • The High Elf Chariot isn’t bad, but it’s way too delicate.
  • The Tomb King Chariot is much better.  Still a bit delicate, but it’s a lot closer.
  • The Beastman Chariot‘s no good.
  • Matt H. has used the Corpse Cart for his Chariots, but it’s not going to work for me.
  • The Dark Elf Chariot is probably the best of the batch, but it’s OOP and a bit too elvish.

I’ve gone back and forth between filling in the grain on the Chaos Chariot and fiddling around with the Tomb King Chariot… and then I found this conversion.  Not mind-shattering, but much more along the lines of what I’m trying to accomplish.

So, this is what I’ve got so far.

The front of the chariot is a Defiler “knuckle” left over from building Soul Grinders.  The base is just plasticard.  The rails are rounded spiked arcs from the Chaos Vehicle sprue.  The wheels are from the Chaos Chariot; I’ve yet to find wheels I like better, so I’ll be filling in the woodgrain.  I’m sticking a Khorne symbol on the front, and a hook on the side.  I’ll run round plasticard tubes out that will hook into the holes  Juggernaut’s shoulders.

Balance is off since it’s just sort of blu-taced together.

Thoughts?  Is it worth the effort?  Should I just use the Tomb King Chariot?

Did some gaming

Taking evil_tendencies’ advice, I’ve not touched the Bloodcrushers in about a week.  They mock me from the hobby section of my desk, however.   Although I didn’t do much in the way of painting, I did get to play a couple of games.

vs. Tyranids

I got out to play a game with Casey on Saturday; I’d intended to do a pretty detailed battle report of the game… but hadn’t sufficiently prepared to do that.  So, instead, we just played the game and took some pictures.  Game was Seize Ground, Dawn of War deployment at 2,000 points.

It was a rough game: between Dawn of War and infiltrating Genestealers, he did a pretty good job of controlling where I could come in.  The first half of the game was spent with my Bloodcrushers tying up his Tyrant while I fed units to his Genestealers.

I won’t say that things turned around when my Bloodthirsters came in, but I certainly felt a lot better about myself.  The ‘Thirsters smacked into his squad of Zoanthropes and Warriors: the combat against his Zoanthropes  wasn’t amazing, but the one with his Warriors kind of was.  Unfortunately, after blowing through the Warriors, the thirster was stuck in the open, facing two Carnifex, a Trygon, Old One Eye and some Raveners.  

I fought for a draw, but it wasn’t in the cards.  I’m okay with that: the list I ran was my 2K Battle for the Cure list, which was tossed together with a “how few extra models will I have to paint” mindset and hasn’t been updated since.  That, and Casey’s a very strong player: there’s no shame in getting tabled by him.   (At least I hope not, ’cause it happens kind of often.)

vs. Chaos Space Marines

Last night, I got in a game with Mike U., someone I don’t think I’ve ever played before.  He was running Chaos Space Marines; the game Capture & Control, Spearhead deployment.  1,500 points.

This was an extremely close game, with a ton of back and forth.  We both had some really shockingly bad dice rolls that made the game look hopeless… only to have things start looking up when the other would have a horrible roll.

Fought it out to the end with a draw.  Had the game ended on Turn 5, I think I’d have won: he was out of Troops and I had some Bloodletters on an objective with one of his Rhinos ~3.5″ away.  It ran into Turn 6, though, and his Greater Daemon was able to wipe out all that remained of my Bloodletters (never mind his Rhino being able to move closer to the objective and contest).

All in all, a really good, close, fun game.

This Saturday, I should be getting in another couple of games: I’ll be running my Dark Angels against Kevin K’s beautiful Tau Empire army (I wish I could find pictures of it from Games Day Baltimore 2009’s Armies on Parade) which I’m going to try to do a detailed, photo-heavy battle report about.  Then I’ll be doing a NoVA Open practice game against Casey, which will see me trying out some new units I’ve never run before.  (Need to decide if I like them before I kill myself modelling them.)

Painting Progress – 20100610

Not much to report, I’m afraid.

Painting this second quartet of Bloodcrushers has been like pulling teeth, I swear.  It’s been inexplicably hard to motivate myself to work on them.  I’ve had them assembled for over two weeks now… and they’re maybe three-quarters of the way done.

As you can see, the brass is wrapped up, but I’ve got to do pretty much everything else.  I’m hoping I can power through them later this week… just to have them done.  I’ve got 1) objective markers and 2) other stuff to work on!

Because the ‘Crushers were being frustrating, and I really felt the need to accomplish something, I painted up the Ruins of Osgiliath I picked up back when.  This is a pretty solid kit and it painted up ridiculously easily.

Sadly, I’m not posting pictures of it.  Clearly, an upcoming weekend project needs to be “Build a light box;” the color of the picture came out so damn weird, there’s no point in them.  Anyway..

I wanted to do something a little different than the Charcoal Grey -> Medium Grey -> Light Grey scheme I use with pretty much all of my other terrain, so I went with the colors I used on the base for my Dark Heresy character: P3 Cryx Bane Base -> P3 Cryx Bane Highlight -> P3 Hammerfall Khaki.  I think I went a bit too heavy with the khaki highlights, but it still came out pretty well.  It’s a lot brighter and looks older, I think.

For the wood, I did something similar: I used P3 Hammerfall Khaki as a base and highlighted it with Khemri Brown before washing over it with some Devlan Mud.  I’m extremely happy with how that came out.  I like the result enough that I’m half thinking about figuring out an army I can paint this way (more or less).

When I wrapped that up, instead of returning to the Bloodcrushers, I did some gap filling on the marine statue from the Honored Imperium kit; I’ll be doing that with metal and verdigris, so I wanted to clean up the somewhat substantial gaps in the otherwise awesome model.

Weekend Accomplishments

I got to do something on Saturday I haven’t been able to do in kind of a while: nothing.  My wife and I puttered around all day, sleeping in and catching up on the new Doctor Who.  That meant I had a lot of time to sit at my desk and get some things done.

I haven’t really accomplished much of anything, hobby-wise, since I wrapped up the Sternguard, so this was nice.

First off, I finished painting the mini for my Dark Heresy character: Caleb Plex, Scum.

The base is a Micro Art Studio Temple base, and it’s pretty swank.

I’m unhappy with the stubble effect, though.  I’ve done it before, successfully, but here it comes across more like a beard than stubble.  I probably needed to mix a bit of brown in there.

Additionally, I managed to assemble a second quartet of Bloodcrushers.

Nothing fancy, here.  Pretty much just the same thing I had before.  The other unpainted guys are Forgeworld Renegade Psykers, which I’m going to use as objective markers.  I need to paint them, as well.

Finally, because I had to wait on greenstuff to cure and because it was on my mind, I started painting a few Malifaux minis.  Specifically, three Witchling Stalkers.

They’re actually pretty close to being done: just need to do the bases, the swords and the boots.  I experimented with them a bit, and I’ll probably get into a little more detail  about how when they’re done.

New Daemon Models Spotted!

Taken from this article on the GW website (by way of Cultist of Sooty on RPG.net).

Tuesday Gaming

I got to play a pair of games on Tuesday:

I started out the afternoon running through a game of Malifaux with Chris.

By the end of the game, most everything had come back to me, which was nice.  At some point, I might actually feel comfortable with the game.  I screwed up in a number of ways, though: paying for my Master (so I played 4 Soulstones down) and only drawing five cards (six is a weird number!).

I really appreciate that Chris keeps putting Rasputina up against my Sonia Criid: it’s a really bad matchup for him / good matchup for me.  I’m sure he’s doing it because he likes running Rasputina, but I have a hard time believing he’s not, in some way, intentionally throwing me some easy (well, easier) games.

Then, I got in a game of 40K with Jay.

Jay ran his Howling Griffons (Space Marines w/ White Scars build), I ran my Khornate Daemons.

As usual, my army has kind of a hard time dealing with other armies that pull the same “We’ll all come in turn one” or “We’ll all come in from reserves” trick that they have to.  So much of the army’s “mobility” comes from that initial Deep Strike.  Also, I blew my “Daemonic Assault” roll (which is usual for me).

Jay kept everything off the table, and rolled a Land Raider (with Assault Termies and a Librarian0 and a Rhino (with a generic Tactical Squad) on the table turn one.  Speeders with Heavy Flamers came in from Reserve and everything else Outflanked.

The game was… I won’t say it was close, but I definitely had him on the ropes.  If I’d been able to knock out a Speeder, it’d have gone differently, I think… but I was unable to hit once with something like 10 charging Bloodletters.  Those Heavy Flamers really fried my Troops.

In the end, he won with three objectives to my none; if we’d had more time to see if we could get in more rounds (we stopped at Round 5 since the store was closing), I probably could have done something about a couple of his Troops… but probably not enough to turn it into a win.

I did take a couple of pictures, since I had my new camera with me and everything was painted.  Here are the rest of them:

Daemon Lists

Rattling around in between thinking about Tau Empire (Chris K. knocked me upside the head with a huge info dump about them that I need to process before I post about Tau again) has been some thinking about my Daemons.

Tournament List

I’m going to NoVA Open (ticket #7) and I’m also considering going to Battle for Blob’s Park, both will 2,000 point events.

I’ve got a 2,000 point list: I put it together for the Battle for the Cure about two months ago.  That event had some non-standard composition rules (that discouraged the inclusion of vehicles).  Plus, I’ve slowly accrued enough Bloodcrushers to field a second quartet of them.  So, I’ve been thinking about how to adjust my 2,000 point list for something somewhat more competitive.  This is what I’m eyeballing now.

Maximum Khornage
2,000 points

Bloodthirster – Unholy Might
Bloodthirster – Unholy Might

Bloodcrushers x4 – Fury, Icon, Instrument
Bloodcrushers x4 – Fury, Icon, Instrument

Bloodletters x8 – Fury, Icon
Bloodletters x8 – Fury

Fast Attack
Flesh Hounds x8 – Fury
Flesh Hounds x8 – Fury

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince – Flight, Iron Hide
Soul Grinder – Phlegm
Soul Grinder – Phlegm

This looks a lot like the list I ran at BftC, but with 16 Bloodletters (instead of 24), Soul Grinders instead of Daemon Princes, and a Bloodcrushers doubled down.  No Karanak, but I’m okay with that.

I could easily drop the Daemon Prince.  A third Soul Grinder in its place would be nasty, but I only have the two and don’t feel like building a third.  Plus, I like that I have this Khorny, factor of two thing going (things come in 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16); 1 Daemon Prince and 2 ‘Grinders fits that pattern better than 3 ‘Grinders.

I could do a third squad of Bloodletters, but they’re really the weakest unit in my list.  Otherwise, I’m pretty happy with the list.  What do folks think?

This means that I need to assemble, convert and paint four Bloodcrushers between now and August (for the NoVA Open) or June 5 (for the Blob’s Park).  Totally feasible.

Kill Team

I’ve also been thinking about what I’d put on the table for Kill Team.  I’ve been excited about this variant since learning about it, but I’ve yet to actually be able to play it.  A big part of that is because I haven’t really considered what I’d put on the table for it.  So, two first cuts of what I’d do.

Khorne Team

Bloodcrushers x3 – Fleet x1, Feel No Pain x1, Hit and Run x1
Bloodletters x5

Khorne Team

Bloodcrushers x1 – Fleet x1
Bloodletters x5 – Feel No Pain x1, Hit and Run x1
Flesh Hounds x5

The first list loads up on ugly, violent Bloodcrushers.  The second only takes the one (as a baby HQ) and goes for a higher model count.  In both cases, I take USRs that compensate for Khorne’s weaknesses: a lack of mobility (Fleet, Hit and Run) and a lack of staying power (Feel No Pain).  Most USRs don’t do much for Khornate Daemons: they already have it (Furious Charge, Fearless, Eternal Warrior) or don’t really benefit from it (Stubborn, Counterattack).

I’m sure these could be tighter, but I’m okay with that.  At least I know what I’d pull out of the case at this point.